[Yvonne Farrell]

I think if you have tried to treat this post-natally (Lung, liver & spleen) then you could do an 8 EV but only if he has a desire to work on the deeper aspects of why he keeps going. He has to want to work on his curriclum.

Also, I am interested in why Yang Wei and not Yang Qiao? Or why not Ren Mai with Stomach channel to slow things down a bit and descend the qi?

I guess I am wondering what you think is the reason he cannot slow down and pace himself for health reasons.

[Yvonne Farrell]

Thanks for that incredible feedback. It is really heart-warming to know that there is value in what we are offering. I am glad that you are finding the recordings useful.

I feel like it is going to get even more interesting when the new group starts.

No plans to stop doing the office hours. I enjoy them so much.

[Yvonne Farrell]

Besides the usual forbidden points during pregnancy, what else is contraindicated? I’m assuming the Luo vessels, if not completely contraindicated, must have precautions. The luo vessels are only contraindicated if she is blood deficient just like everyone else. You can still treat them even then. Just dont bleed. You can do gua sha or circuit treatments.

I’m guessing draining Dai Mai is out. but what about consolidating? You can safely consolidate. I actually use the draining function for labor prep (39 weeks plus) because it opens the pelvic floor, relaxes shao yang and helps to initiate the labor functions of the San Jiao. But of course not early in the pregnancy.

What about the vessels that work with micro circulation ? No better time to support microcirculation than pregnancy. The only concern is too much moving in a patient at risk for miscarriage. Even then the risk is not big if combined with raising.

This particular patient currently has H.Pylori. She was wanting a second baby but not until she’d done the H.Pylori protocol and recovered from it. She’s still considering taking amoxicillin. Waiting to hear what her OB says about that. Safe to use the Ren or Yin wei for this.

Her last pregnancy was really difficult and depleting. She had horrible insomnia the entire pregnancy and at 35 weeks she went to the ER for strange palm burning and tingling which is a LV function issue. They ran a bunch of tests and her LV was not functioning. Towards the end of her pregnancy she experienced severe fatigue and intense itching on her legs. She was immediately induced. After giving birth her LV began functioning fine on its own and the insomnia immediately went away. Yin Wei. She should definitely have the Golden Needle treatment at the end of the first and second trimester.

As you can imagine postpartum was really difficult as she had a lot of issues due to her LV not functioning for so long. Heavy metal toxicity and gut issues—-SIBO. And of course fatigue.

So far with this pregnancy she’s doing well. Last pregnancy the insomnia had already set in.

Besides working with her, her pregnancy got me wondering generally how to think about using these vessels during pregnancy, if at all. It’s easier for me to think about them for fertility issues, but it hadn’t occurred to me about how they might be helpful during pregnancy. Preganacy ios a jing issue so using the 8 EV is a good choice.

For this woman I’d like to be able to keep her from going under during this pregnancy generally and right now support her middle in the midst of H.Pylori and pregnancy nausea and her general weakness there. Maybe the primary channels are all I need? Maybe. As long as history doesn’t repeat itself. Then they will not be enough.

She is generally blood and yin xu. She is tall and has a very thin body type. Ren

Assuming Ren Mai is okay using points above the belly button? Yes. also at 6 weeks you can needle as low as Ren-6 and add stomach channel oints that access yuan qi. Something like ChongMai 5th trajectory? I never needle SP4 in pregnancy though. Why? I use the Chong for morning sickness all the time. Is it okay to do so? Earth School? You can use any of the 8 EV if they are indicated.

I’d appreciate help getting a basic sense of these vessels for pregnancy and any suggestions for this patient. This is a whole class. In fact I did one years ago with Laura Erlich for pregnancy. You can absolutely use them but you do need to understand pregnancy conditions well. If you have experience treating pregnant women that should be easy. If you don’t you will need a course. I believe Healthy Seminars has a bunch that are taught by others, including those who basically treat mostly pregnant women.

[Yvonne Farrell]

Happy New Year Vibeke and everyone else!

New dates should be posted today. It got away from us with the holidays and the symposium but we will have office hours in January on:

Jan 10 @ 7 pm and Jan 22 @ 9 am

Hope to see you all soon!

[Yvonne Farrell]

Hi Jamie. So sorry you are going through this it sounds awful. Thanks for the heads up. I knew that some people could have side effects from B6 but I never really thought of it as toxicity. Good to know.

I have some questions about using the 5 channels to treat B6 toxicity and also wanted to let everyone know that it is more common than seems to be generally known.

I am assuming that “5 channels” is sinews, luos, primary, divergents and 8 EV? In general it is important to remember that we don’t actually treat a western diagnosis and classically no one would have even known if someone had this so even though we know it is the B6 causing this we still need to look at how the symptoms are presenting to determine the pattern and which system is involved. Short term (acute) we would look at the sinews and luos and of course the primary channels. The sinews would address the neuropathy (pain) and the luos would support that by clearing the toxicity from the blood. If god forbid, the symptoms linger, then the latency will affect deeper systems (divergents & 8 EV).

I started having very minor come and go slight numbness on the tip of my right pinky about 6-8 weeks ago. Then noticed it on the tip of my R middle finger. Noticed my arms and legs falling asleep sometimes. And was having high anxiety which felt physiological. I’d also had come and go nausea for a few months prior., which is not typical for me. (Anxiety and nausea are also symptoms of toxicity). Eventually my feet started burning, tingling, aching and feeling stiff. Everything having to do with my feet hurt—-socks, shoes, blankets, sitting, lying in bed, walking, standing. This sounds like the yin sinews are mostly involved.

I had a friend do some TCM acup on me—-basically just opening up the channels that run through the legs./feet. It was actually very helpful. The treatx took the pain way down and has held. Great! Did she make a TCM diagnosis? What was it?

I was wondering about Sinew channel treatx and possibly Luo’s. For something like this do you think bleeding would help clear some of this toxicity out more quickly? Any other treatment strategies?l/ideas? I do think that this type of toxicity effects the blood so, bleeding will help.

I also think you need to look at this experience in the context of your curriculum. If you think this is bringing you some opportunity to learn and grow then you might also look at the patterns associated with the Yin Wei. (with Ki-9) (Micro-circulation and detox) Basically you need to look at your constitution and why this is happening to you now? Where are your vulnerabilities?

Right now I feel symptoms mostly along the BL channel and GB channel in my feet and ankles. But can feel it in other areas of my feet as well. Sometimes the tip of my R big toe aches and burns. It’s a little like wind as it moves around, although it feels like it has settled primarily in the BL/GB channels. But I can feel aching, burning and tingling across the balls of my feet and sometimes across the tops of my feet. It’s really strange. Clearly multiple channels are involved so you will need to determine where to begin. You might try to clear the yin sinews first, then the yang sinews. There is an order for this in your sinews notes. You start with Jue Yin. This will be to address the pain. But if your desire is to rid the body of excess B6 faster then you will need to address blood.

Nausea is gone and anxiety is gone. Main sympx is the neuropathy in my feet. I’m definitely doing much better, it’s at a tolerable level, but would love to clear this out more quickly. Plus I’m just curious to learn how to think about this from a 5 channel perspective. How we look at this is how we look at everything. We look at where the pain is, what vital substances are involved. How is the latency being held? What are the emotions & beliefs involved? There is no treatment protocol for this. Your body is trying to save you from the ingestion of a substance that it has deemed toxic. How is it trying to help you to survive? How long has it been trying? Infact, you do not even need to know it was B6. You treat what you see.

Plus, the low B6 diet is VERY challenging and doesn’t feel that healthy. And I’m someone who has liked experimenting with all kinds of diets and can be pretty flexible and disciplined but this is on another level. The diet is just another technique for trying to restore balance. If that diet is helpful it can tell you a ton about what is going on and what you can do about it. Why does the diet help? That is the same question as for example. “why does Dang Gui or Bai Shao help?”

I know that it sounds a little vague. if you came to me as a patient then I would make a diagnosis and treat but you are in a mentorship so rather than give you answers I am trying to help you learn how to think about this. The beauty of this system is it works without the Western diagnosis and if you get overly focused on that diagnosis you might miss what you need to see.

I’m also wondering if you could say a little about Kidney Prime. I can’t seem to find it in my notes or anywhere else.

Kidney Prime is on the bottom of the foot. If you divide the sole of the foot into thirds, Ki-1 is located on the between the first and second third. Kidney Prime where the second and third sections meet. Ki-1 has a resonance with the Ren (resuscitation from drowning/Yin) and Kidney Prime is resonant with the grounding function of the Chong.

Hope that help and that you feel better everyday. xo

[Yvonne Farrell]

Hi Vibeke,

I am happy to answer any questions that you have. That will be true no matter what happens with the office hours. If for some reason you have a problem with the forum, then you can always send your questions to me directly at yrfarrell@gmail.com. We prefer the forum because everyone gets to learn and we are trying to build community, but you should know you can always ask me questions.

We are currently working on dates for January and then in February we will merge the new cohort with the alumni. The office hours will move to 2 hours. The focus on the first hour will be the alumni and the second hours the newbees. But people will be able to join either group or stay for both.

Happy holidays,

Yvonne xo

[Yvonne Farrell]

Hi Dani,

Sorry there has been no response yet. Everyone is working their butts off right now making sure that the Symposium goes off without a hitch. It’s going fabulous but that means they may be delayed in getting to this. I sent an email to both Lorne and Lorianne mentioning what happened. I have no doubt it will get fixed.

[Yvonne Farrell]

Hi Vibeke,

The specific phobia is not that important. Meaning the birds are not important to the process except for the fact that it is a little irrational to be scared of chicken on your plate.

There are basically two types of phobias; the first is phobias that have been triggered by trauma, the second is phobias that have no known traumatic event.

The first would be like; “I was bitten by a dog at 3 years old and now I am deathly afraid of dogs, all kinds.”

The second would be like Trypophobia, which is a fear of holes. This is believed to be related to the idea that holes are potentially dangerous. So more instinctual and inherited.

The first one you need to focus on the trauma. A Po tx might be helpful but you would still need details.

The second is usually a Chong mai issue. This is an evolutionary process that is unfolding in a pathological way. Also you have a lot of influence on the Yi here. Clear thinking.

Hope that helps,

Yvonne

[Yvonne Farrell]

Hi Tamra,

I think this a very worthwhile discussion but there is also no one definitive answer to many of your concerns.

I said that acupuncture and herbal treatments need to be coordinated with the oncology team, and blood work results are useful so that the patient and partner would have the impression that collaboration between Eastern and Western medical team is key. I said Eastern medicine can be part of your cancer care support team, but it does not “treat” cancer. There are many ways to treat patients with cancer. Most of the time, depending on where you live we are not actually legally allowed to say we treat cancer. In most states the scope of practice includes the “side effects of cancer treatment”. Chinese medicine is actually quite effective for cancer patients but most of those patients have oncologists that are very particular about other forms of treatment so it is always best to be as well informed as possible so you don’t make things worse or injure/impede the patient’s relationship with their primary cancer doc.

I attended a TCM Academy webinar and learned some from cancer care experts and I have a couple of books, notably one by Simon Becker that offers herbal guidance for blood cancers and chemo-disturbed blood. The cancer care experts readily spoke about having “specialized training” for oncology support. I think in some ways this is very much like treating fertility. The allopathic approach that oncologists take is considered to be the primary form of treatment so having specialized training in oncology support helps both you and the patient.

I remember you saying that you don’t like treating people with cancer. There is hardly a time in my practice when I am not treating at least one or two cancer patients. I typically treat patients once they have completed their most invasive treatments. The reason I don’t like it is because both of my parents died because of cancer, so it is a little close for me. I have over the last 30 years lost a few patients to that battle. I don’t enjoy it. When a patient is first diagnosed, I usually refer out. Early treatment is typically much more aggressive and I am not really comfortable with that. I am fortunate that one of my teachers when I was in school is a brilliant diagnostician and herbalist and he also treats a lot of cancer patients. He was trained as an MD so he fully understands western treatment. So I usually send them to him.

Where do we find the cancer care experts in our medicine? I actually googled “oncology acupuncture support” just before I responded and that is as good a start as any. Of course, you would need to check and see what type of extra training they have. I am not aware of any board like ABORM for cancer/acupuncture. I know of no directories for this specialty. I just know a few people who do this, mostly in my area.

I don’t believe that I want to seek the additional credential at this time, but perhaps in the future. I just want to know what falls within best practices and how to progress with patient care safely; to avoid causing harm and to alleviate stress and assist in restoring people to a measure of vitality when that is possible. I think if you focus on supporting the patient’s resources and dealing with stress you likely cannot go wrong. Based on your earlier comments I think it unlikely you would overstep in a way that could cause harm. I think herbs are tricky with chemo but pretty safe with radiation and surgery. Acupuncture only becomes an issue with certain types of tumors and only if you try to treat locally. Creating bodywide circulation and keeping needles away from tumor sites is safe.

This patient has stage 4 stomach cancer with liver involvement diagnosed roughly two weeks ago and I am not the Mayo Clinic specialist. He reported mid-thoracic pain on the right side. see above. You can treat both the liver and stomach channels but do not put needles locally. This is a very serious cancer and the prognosis is not great. There is likely little you could do that would make it worse and probably a lot you could do to bring comfort and improve quality of life.

Does every acupuncturist stand in my shoes at some point and figure out how to help or is it wiser to punt and avoid such patients? I can’t speak for all acupuncturists but I can tell you I have stood in those shoes and many of my friends have too. At some point you just need to recognize when you are in over your head. You need to feel comfortable that you will be able to access information if something comes up. So you need resources to do this. Books are good, practitioners with experience…better.

I remember hearing you say “just try” among many other things. Maybe you wouldn’t offer this advice to this situation. The answer to this is dependent on what the patient intends to do. If they are ready and willing to fight for their lives then you should refer out. They are going to need very aggressive treatment. If they are looking for comfort and maybe a little more time then you can likely help with the comfort part by treating what you see.

I just did TCM prescription, but likely will refer out from here. Chemo has not started yet. They suggest they will try to shrink the tumor with chemo, but surgery was not posited by his doctor as next step (due to liver involvement). Like all other conditions it is important to get some sense of what the patient is willing to do or what their expectations are. I think you were very honest and compassionate but I think maybe you undersold yourself a bit. This is way better than over-selling. If you treat the patient, not the disease you can definitely help.

[Yvonne Farrell]

Hi Ester,

I always enjoy the Dutch practitioners. So glad to have you join us.

[Yvonne Farrell]

Welcome Johanna. I look forward to your participation. I am certain that you have a perspective that will enhance the group.

[Yvonne Farrell]

Welcome Kaisa. I grew up in Orange County. Still have family there, though I live in Long beach these days. I look forward to hearing more about your story. Sounds like you are already an expert on adversity.

[Yvonne Farrell]

If she had an experience with the chickens when she was young then you would probabaly want to do a Po tx but since she doesn’t remember you could definitely start with the Chong as this will address the first 7 years of her life anyway.

Could her issues with this dreams also be “an evolutionary process that is unfolding in a pathological way” and a chong – thing, or what is your thoughts here? I am not sure I understand the question. When you say “issues with the dreams” are you saying that the dreams are the evolutionary process or her resistance/fear of the dreams is the evolutionary process?

I think it is likely that this capacity for clairvoyance is part of her nature. This is a gift of the Hun/ soul of the liver. Her fear as you say may be because she doesn’t know how to deal with them as a gift. In that sense, the dreams are not the problem, the fear or reluctance is. Have you checked for luo vessels?

The Chong can definitely address all of this and Ki-24 gives you access to the Hun and Ki-16 is where the Hun exits and enters the body at night. Gifts like clairvoyance are often handed down from one generation to the next. Ask her about memories of her grandmother.

[Yvonne Farrell]

Wow! Wow! Wow! Glad this guy wants things explained to him because he is definitely going to need his expectations managed. First of all, all of those medications are going to make progress very slow.

Gu treatment was a good start and the vaccine is very likely to be the straw that broke the camel’s back but he was already neuropathy looking for a place to happen. Ask him if he scrapes or brushes his tongue. If he doesn’t then part of the phlegm damp is likely due to the body trying to compensate for the alcohol plundering yin.

He definitely has metabolic issues that are also going to complicate this and with his history you are going have to be careful about local needling (risk of infection).

Check his toes, if they are red or purple then you need to bleed some jing-wells. This could be done in a sinew channel treatment for more immediate relief but the sinews are not going to make any real headway with this problem. If you decide to do a sinew treatment (to get him on board) then try to minimize the leg needles and focus on either leg yin or leg yang, don’t do both at once.

His brain is going to need help that’s a Du & Qiao issue. His gut is going to need help and blood stasis and phelgm are an issue. So Gu, Earth school treatments and Yin Qiao & Yin Wei treatments are all possible.

I think it is going to be very important to let this guy know that it is impossible to treat his legs without addressing ALL of the things that are contributing to the neuropahy. You will really only be able to address one contributing factor at a time. He needs to be in it for the long haul.

This is going to be a wonderful opportunity for you.

[Yvonne Farrell]

It is a privilege to support all of you like I was suported when I first started practicing. I think you can trust your instincts and also your feelings about how much you want to take on.

I do believe that if we decide to take on a new challenge that there is always help out there. It is wise to ask for help when you think you need it.

I find most senior acupuncturist are willing to provide a little wisdom and perspective when they are asked. I think we appreciate practitioners who are dedicated to learning and growing.